Answering Dan Mages

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. "



"And the Word became flesh and dwealt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."


John 1:1-3, 14

Dan, as look over your comments and present activities I see that you place a tremendous emphasis on what you call "Intellectual Honesty" Yet, when I evaluate your theology and endeavors I can't escape the feeling that somehow, your bad experience at the Master's College and unfortunate treatment at some Evangelical churches has not pushed you over the edge towards a postmodern and Arian/Unitarian understanding of Christianity.

You went from being a Conservative Evangelical Bible major at the Master's College to being a person who denies the Trinity, attends a church that supports homosexuality and "gay unions"

Your church website says the following: First Congregational Church, we offer a variety of wedding ceremonies- both for heterosexual couples and same-gender partnerships. There are no membership restrictions for these services. Marriage is more than a celebration of social customs. The guests gather not only to witness the ceremony, but also to provide support to the couple and to give thanks to God and ask Gods blessing upon their covenant relationship. First Congregational Church is eager to make your marriage a beautiful and memorable occasion. The following information will help you plan and enjoy this important event. http://www.fccriverside.org/weddings/brochure.php

So, in a space of just a few years you now adopt Unitarianism, Open Theism, a Emergent Church perspective and now minister at a church with a woman pastor and a church that supports homosexuality?

It appears to me that you are overreacting to some ill treatment at a Fundamentalist institution and have adopted many beliefs and practices that are in direct opposition to the Master's College and Conservative Evangelicalism.

Dan, the reason why I have debated you with kindness and did not use a "shock and awe" type of debate tactic in our last debate, is because this is what you expected. You expected me to come across as an "Angry Fundamentalist" but I did not, because you have already got that treatment and that's not what this is about.

I can't but feel that you are now believing and teaching these doctrines you know are detested in Conservative Evangelicalism because you know they will generate condemnation in the circles you are angry with.

I caution you against absorbing the doctrines of the Emergent Church (EC) just to spite us conservative Evangelicals.

I have witnessed within EC an almost disdain of Luther the Reformers and conservative Evangelical theology in general and this troubles me, since Luther, Calvin and etc, are the foundational theologians of Evangelicalism in general and to not acknowledge their contributions makes me wonder if we should deem EC as a viable expression of true Evangelicalism at all or if we should label EC as a totally different movement from Evangelical Christianity.

The fundamental thesis I am attempting to postulate is that Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Protestant Reformation is what gave birth and impetus to Evangelical Protestantism in the first place, thus to refuse to acknowledge the positive contributions of the founding fathers of our faith is like saying that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and the US Constitution has no relevance in socio-political discussions on the future of American Democracy today.

I am afraid what is really at the heart of the Emergent Church controversy within American Evangelical Protestantism today concerns the validity of Post-modernity as a viable ideological foundation for Evangelical theology and polity today.The EC movement is ultimately an attempt to synthesize what is perceived to be the best of both worlds: Evangelicalism and Post-modernity.

However, there is a growing consensus within Conservative American Evangelicalism that the two movements are irreconcilable and are an unwise attempt at ecclesiastical and doctrinal syncreticism: an attempt at mixing two mutually exclusive world-views into a homogeneous spiritual movement.The world renown German Philosopher Hegel saw this approach in terms of "Dialectical synthesis" wherein a thesis and its antithesis is merged forming a synthesis.Post-modernity and traditional Protestantism founded by Luther and Calvin cannot be successfully synthesized since they are at once two mutually exclusive world views that have two radically irreconcilable ideological starting points: foundationalism and propositional and ethical relativism.

EC attempts two have the best of both worlds by maintaining a facade and external shell of adherence to Evangelical tradition and theology while attempting to utilize the entirely antithetical postmodern cultural hermeneutic, that seeks to obliterate doctrinal and ethical absolutes.

EC cannot have the best of both worlds, either its proponents will lapse into non-Christian unbelief like the rest our Postmodern culture that is militantly opposed to traditional Bible based Evangelicalism or EC will return back to the Theo-centric, Christocentric and Bibliocentric centrality focus that differentiates Evangelicalism from all the other ideological and religious options.Historic Evangelical Protestantism is centered around propositional absolutes, that Almighty God exists and has spoken absolutely, objectively and coherently in the Bible which it deems to be the exclusively authoritative, infallible, inerrant and inspired Word of Almighty God and that God has communicated in a final salvific sense in the historical-redemptive forensic soteriological act of Jesus Christ upon the Cross.

Evangelicalism teaches that there are non-negotiable and unchanging theological and ethical norms based on the authority of Scripture that cannot be broken irrespective of the passing fancy of contemporary culture.In diametrical counter distinction to the objectivist and absolutist theological and ethical standard of historic Biblical Evangelicalism, the advent and cultural ascendancy of Post-modernity seeks to obliterate traditional ideological and ethical norms within Western Civilization and postulates that there is not such thing as absolute truth and morality.EC attempts to synthesize post-modernity and Evangelicalism, but like attempting to mix oil and water, it will fail to make the engine that is the historic Church run, but will rather spun out on the road of bankrupt ideology like every other non-Bible based world view that has attempted to replace Evangelicalism as the truth.EC and Evangelicalism cannot be successfully synthesized because EC seeks to utilize post-modernity as an ideology and post-modernity is inherently relativistic, the diametrical ideological nemesis of historic Christianity that says God has spoken in an absolute and final matter.

Regarding your views of the Trinity and other doctrines important to the Evangelical Church, to compare believing in the Trinity with believing in the Rapture or Calvinism/Arminianism is like comparing apples with oranges: They are not in the same category.

Belief in the Rapture and belief in the historic Doctrine of the Trinity are two infinitely different things. The Rapture is a debatable doctrine at best, but the nature of God is the essence of what true Christianity is.

If one has a different concept of God than what the Bible teaches, he or she does not have true faith in God, but a false idol of one's own imagination. The Unitarian and Socinian understanding of Jesus and the nature of God cannot be found in the pages of proper Biblical interpretation but is the result of terrible exegesis and preheld and presuppostional bias against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Throughout my two- decade long sojourn in this most precious Christian faith, I have always believed staunchly and unequivocally in the historic Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity. I believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity simply and finally because the Holy Scriptures teach this and for no other reason.

The Bible clearly teaches that there in one true and living God (Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Kings 8:60 and John 17:3)

The Bible teaches that the Father is God (Matthew 28:19-20, John 6:27 and Romans 1:7).The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is God (Matthew 1:23, John 1:1-14, 8:58, Acts 20:28, Romans 9:5 and Col. 1:16-17).

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 5:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 13:14)

Thus, I come to the conclusion that the Historic Christian Faith is correct and that there in God exists the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this is the one true God mentioned in the Bible.

Historic and Biblical Christianity has always believed and taught that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the Second Person of the Godhead who is co-equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit of whom Jesus Christ shares the same essence. To believe anything different is to be guilty of the forced exegesis I see you, Anthony Buzzard and all Unitarians are guilty of. I believe your theological views are not the result of sound Biblical interpretation, but are the result of your angry vendetta against Conservative Evangelicalism.

In my debates with you I am greatly perplexed as to what methodology of hermeneutics you were using and seen some major inherent incongruousness in your interpretive grid from which you exegete Scripture. I myself was left scratching my head and wondering from what criterion do you objectively interpret Scripture. Is your hermeneutic taken from the subjectivistic postmodern standard of the Emergent Church Movement, philosophical rationalism, Historical-Grammaticalism or some other interpretive method of understanding Holy Scripture.

Your views appear to reflect anger and bias against Conservative Evangelicalism, thus you force the Scriptures to reflect your Unitarian understanding of Scripture, the careful exegete of Scripture will find that the Bible clearly teaches that within the one true God exists three distinct and co-eternal persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt.

Dan, the Bible clearly and unambiguously teaches that Jesus Christ is God and that the Doctrine of the Trinity is the truth (Please read: Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:23, 28:19-20, John 1:1-14, 1:18, 5:23, 8:58, 14:1-10, 20:28, Acts 5:1-8, 20:28, Romans 9:5, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Philippians 2:1-11,Colossians 1:15-17, 2:8-9, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:1-8, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Revelation 1:8, 17-18 and 22:13).The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is both God and is a person despite the false teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses on this matter (Please Read: Matthew 28:19-20, John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13, Acts 5:1-4, Acts 13:2-4, 20:23, 20:28. 1 Corinthians 12:11 and Hebrews 9:14).

"But these have been written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing, you might have life in His name" (John 20:31).